OpenClonk MiniBlock

Ist schon was als Tür / Tor geplant?

Manuell geöffnete Türen und dampfbetriebene Tore könnte ich mir gut vorstellen!

Ich weiß nicht, ob es öffentlich ist, aber ich lass es einfach mal hier:
https://trello.com/b/VfXNP7vo/openclonk-blocks

Kommt das offiziell in OC oder ist das fanmade? Ich blick langsam alles nicht mehr :sad:

Naja, das Ziel ist schon das so lauffähig zu machen, dass das in allen Szenarien einfach funktioniert. Wenn das gut funktioniert kann ich mir schon vorstellen, dass das ins Originalpack kommt - mal schaun

:birthday::birthday::birthday:

Was soll es denn genau können? Aus den Bildern versteh ich nicht so ganz das Konzept (außer die Minecraft-Ebene). Kann es im Moment leider auch nicht ausprobieren.

Bauklötze! "Physics"! KreativiTÄT! TRANSPORTRÖööÖHREN!

Ich glaube das ist als Burg und Baseschutz gewollt.

Ich finde das zumindest passender als Wachtürme. Weil der Clonk viel agiler als in CR ist und einige Items den Clonk schnell in die Luft bringen, bringen Wachtürme nicht mehr so viel. Jetzt braucht man öfter mal ein Dach oder viele kleine Mauern und Türen um seine Base zu schützen.

Ich finde das auch besser als Wachtürme und die üblichen Burgbauteile mit geringer (Bauteil)auflösung. Die Blöcke sehen sehr interessant aus und ich bin gespannt, was da noch alles für features dazu kommen. :smiley:

Ich schreibe das mal auf Englisch, weil ich denke, das evtl. recyclen zu können.

What is this
============
The blocks should provide the player with the ability to construct a meta-building (that is, a building for your buildings) which enhances the productivity and feeling of a base.
Additionally, a system will be presented, that allows the player to construct simple contraptions by utilizing a system orthogonal to the current power system.
This should, however, be reserved to properties of the meta-buildings.
The players should be able to industrialize a small part of the landscape by turning it into a production facility.
The normal buildings (e.g. the workshop) should be inside the meta-building.

The modular block system tackles a few core problems with OpenClonk.

Repetitive Progress
-------------------
A settlement in OpenClonk is currently nearly always built up in the same order: you'll need a foundry first, followed by a windmill and maybe a sawmill or a workshop.
Little of that is dynamic. A meta-building with which you can protect and actually improve your production buildings, will add a new layer to that.
You'll have more possibilities about where and how to build your base, without having to add alternatives for every station in the production chain.

Especially if you want to make your base earthquake, meteorite and acid safe - and of course want to utilize the lava as a natural resource of heat.

Production Chains
-----------------
One of our plans from the very beginning has been the integration of more complicated production chains.
The strengths of OpenClonk are not a dynamic huge world (as in Terraria) or arcade-style gameplay (because the controls are way too sluggy for that).
What we can do to set ourselves apart from games such as Terraria or Minecraft is to go more into the direction of the old Settlers games - or if you
want to think in terms of newer games, think Factorio.
We can offer the player a problem (in forms of a landscape with natural disasters and a fixed goal), which is much unlike e.g. Terraria! The player should
then have to build a settlement, taking the natural disasters into account and working around them, building up a productive settlement that can fulfil the goals.

In my opinion, this can be a keypoint in creating our own niche (compared to e.g. Terraria). So, why does this modular base system help?
Similar to what Clonkonaut started, the integration of conveyor belts that can automatize parts of your production chain.
This will enable us to provide more complicated production chains, which would right now just be a hassle to the players iff they'd have to do it manually.

Integration into the original game
==================================
So, obviously the question arises whether such a "free" block system can fit into the original game. You can build up a solid construction in the air rather quickly, isn't that weird?
I'd argue that we already have that in the game and it became a core element already: wall kits. Not only are they at least as strong in protecting from disasters, they are also much easier to build, because they are constrained less.
With a wall kit, you can run into the enemies' base and block off parts of it. Or you can trap enemies. You can even use them while jumping, enabling you to basically "fly"!

So, why do we still allow wall kits in the game? ala has already wanted to remove them for a long time!
They enable a new degree of freedom that would otherwise be lacking: terraforming or at least building up a meta-base to protect your buildings from disasters.

We could now replace that and even enable it in e.g. base melees! Why? Because we can put restrictions on the usage of the blocks:

You could only build them in your flag radius, disabling you from making it yourself too easy inside of the enemies' base or somewhere else on the map.
And all that while still enabling you to be the KING of your base - something I have wanted for a long time.

They might be harder to use against certain elements - e.g. earthquakes or meteorites. So a scenario designer can prevent constructions in certain locations with relative ease. This is unlike the wall kits.

Another argument against it might be that such square blocks look "unnatural" compared to the rest of the landscape. Again I'd argue, yes, they are smooth. But in my opinion that is actually a good thing. Getting stuck on small material edges is one of the main reasons for frustration in OC.
Do you really want to have that every time you move between your foundry or your workshop? I say we should enable the player to build a frustration-free base where she can move (or push lorries) without worrying about tumbling over that single pixel.

We could also put this in the OC discussion forum. I think you will have to address some problems with the system. They are also present in all those block games like Starbound or Minecraft, but were less severe in Clonk so far:

1) It extremely simplifies landscape hurdles:
Go to the trouble of producing a blimp to reach a high point? Nah, walls.
Produce a bridge segment and transport it to cross a valley? Nah, walls.
You see an obstacle like a lava like, where should you pump it? Nah, lets just build a flag there and wall it up.

2) Walling up monsters, traps and enemies to avoid dealing with them.

3) In Melees the defender has an extreme advantage now. In melees practical defenses will be build that look like straight unnatural lines into the sky and such… Also you can just repair damage very fast and add several layers. Building looks so simple that it is probably more trouble to destroy than to construct.

I don't hate wall-kits but I hate their use in mid-jump, swimming and combat. They are fine when used on the ground or while climbing and hanging.

----

Now what I do like are those transport pipes, and while it is true we need heavier production chains to make some sense of all that mining - just building with blocks is not gonna tackle this alone. We won't get a tech tree or some production chains with this alone.

What really should be done to at least make the system bearable:
-forbid block building in mid air/tunnel, only from the ground or wall up. Note this is difficult because of sideways pass through gaps (pass through platforms), windows and doors. So the building mechanism would have to be elaborated enough to specify how to place those as well.
-forbid in liquids
-forbid walling in animals or clonks.

Here is another suggestion that is controversial however: Very High cost. If a brick wall is very expensive, we would still have a decent use for all those vehicles and tools, and you just couldn't afford to just build a lava lake in, it would be much more economical to cross it by natural means.

>1) It extremely simplifies landscape hurdles:


No. It's actually more difficult to use than the wall kit (which has been ingame for some years now). So I doubt that adding the blocks to any scenario will simplify anything.

>Go to the trouble of producing a blimp to reach a high point? Nah, walls.


Currently it's wall kits or loam. That's waaaay easier than constructing flags everywhere to be able to build a bridge.

>Produce a bridge segment and transport it to cross a valley? Nah, walls.


Using a hand full of wood compares to building flagpoles and using tons of rock? I think I'd go with the bridges.
At least those don't collapse when they are not connected to earth anymore.

>You see an obstacle like a lava like, where should you pump it? Nah, lets just build a flag there and wall it up.


Loam would be easier and way more efficient because it does not collapse when the bottom part is gone.

>In melees practical defenses will be build that look like straight unnatural lines into the sky and such


Which would be extremely unstable. If you destroy just the bottom block, everything will collapse. Using wall kits is way safer in that case.

>Also you can just repair damage very fast and add several layers


It's slower than with the current wall kits.

>forbid block building in mid air/tunnel, only from the ground or wall up


It's like that.

>-forbid in liquids


It's like that at the moment. We are thinking about how to enable the players to build underwater bases, though.

>-forbid walling in animals or clonks.


We think about disabling construction when enemies are around. I don't really have a better idea than that, sadly.

>Here is another suggestion that is controversial however: Very High cost. If a brick wall is very expensive, we would still have a decent use for all those vehicles and tools, and you just couldn't afford to just build a lava lake in, it would be much more economical to cross it by natural means.


I am completely against that. I'd go for the cost of a basement. Or a wall kit. Otherwise we would not see complete bases at all.
Don't forget that in order to build around a lava lake, you would need flagpoles everywhere. Using wall kits, loam or bridges is way more efficient.

Ah, good that you mentioned basements. The current "chain of basements" to reach parts of the map, that is quite awful too.

In summary the current methods of wall kits and basements are quite simplifying, the brick system should not opt to replace their errors because they should have been corrected some time ago. They are mostly present because we lack objects in some parts of the game (like how the wall kits are used for diving).

-----

I think you understand the basic challenge of the brick system is probably to avoid oversimplification. I do think it is possible, but I think a more healthy way to avoid such conflicts is by adding more object content (tools, vehicle) to OC. Those objects should take the place of simple solutions, and the bricks/metals etc. can loose some of their responsibilities.

Like what? More clonk-style would be having guard-towers instead of brick walls, bridge segments - and tools to excess parts of the map. An example for a new tool could be the balloon pack from Xeron 3 in Clonkrage which lifts the Clonk upwards (I added this to the Bridgefight mod last year). I feel this would be much nicer than just building a straight bridge or brick wall up. Maybe add clonks being shot by cannons and extend the ridiculous small catapult shooting range for Clonks. Following this increase of mobility of the Clonk, vehicle mobility should follow. Transport vehicles over obstacles and get vehicles out of stuck places via ropes or balloons. For the smaller vehicles maybe even lift them like carry heavy. The cable cars should enter and so on.

These kind of mobility pluses are just so much more lively than just adding basements, loam, metal bridges and bricks to the whole map. From playing Starbound I can also say that building bricks all the time is repetitive and gets boring at some point (especially if you have played those other Non-Clonk games).

So I don't have anything against bricks, but they should not replace all those cool objects we should build. I think the natural feeling of playing should be that the player does use tools, vehicles and stuff for mobility. They should be faster, cheaper and more fun than bricks. In this case we would not need to fear all those simple brick solutions, and bricks could keep their full creative potential without getting restricted to much. 

I don't think a brick vs wall kit/basement discussion makes sense. They both avoid us having fun, and we should avoid their simplification.

-------------

Ah just for the example of unnatural building lines, and trying to avoid the collapse of the wall There is a simple solution:

>Loam would be easier and way more efficient because it does not collapse when the bottom part is gone.


I would build it like this:
            |
            |_
            |  |some loam or earth pixel here in the sky.
            |
            |
            |
Enemy || My base

You see this way the wall is connected to earth and does not collapse.

> No. It's actually more difficult to use than the wall kit (which has been ingame for some years now). So I doubt that adding the blocks to any scenario will simplify anything.


The wall kit does oversimplify a lot of things. Therefore, it is deactivated in about half of our missions.

I don't think it's a problem to restrict tools in certain scenarios. We just need a good way to communicate that to the player (e.g. a tech-tree interface that shows deactivated stuff). An alternative way is to have the walls or the wall-building hammer require some rare material that is not available in every scenario.

>>Go to the trouble of producing a blimp to reach a high point? Nah, walls.


>Currently it's wall kits or loam. That's waaaay easier than constructing flags everywhere to be able to build a bridge.


-easier +takes longer

> rare material


'special rock'

Constructing a hand full of wallkits (or loam) to reach a high place is probably a lot faster than building multiple flags to be able to build a brick wall. Or do I misunderstand you?

Misunderstanding!
Building multiple flags just takes longer than constructing a hand full of wallkits.
I can't see a challenge or advantage!

Oh, yes, so using wall kits or loam IS less effort than building a wall out of bricks, right? That's what I was saying.

I think his point is that it's still a trivial solution. Just one that takes longer.

That's dangerous because if you have general solutions that can solve all problems, players may not even look for the more interesting ones and then complain that our game is tedious and boring.

Anyway, I think just deactivating the walls for scenarios that would be ruined by them is fine.